Cash For Clunkers For EVs

"davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com" (davesaddiction) 07/14/2020 at 21:35 • Filed to: None

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What say you, OPPO?

I hate to think what classics might be crushed in CFC II...

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Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 21:44

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Systematic r emoval of accessible and affordable transportation to boost auto sales...

You know: for the environment.

boredalways > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 21:46

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As long as it’s voluntary and not a way to prop up Detroit AGAIN.

Oh wait, do they even have any EV worth buying?

... at least their build quality is better than Tesla.

facw > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 21:50

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Not great. Cash for clunkers might have been good for the auto industry, but for all but the worst polluters, keeping a car on the road rather than building a new one is generally going to be way better for the environment.

atfsgeoff > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 21:52

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I’d be all for it IF and only if they don’t fucking crush the traded-in cars. What a monumental waste of resources and human labor.

Just Jeepin' > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 21:52

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Dear heavens the number of XJs, WJs, and ZJs that died as a result of the last one...

Say it ain’t so, Joe.

sony1492 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 21:57

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Do we really have the infrastructure for a vast increase in electric cars?

Also, fuck poor people needing/wanting debt free transport

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > boredalways 07/14/2020 at 21:58

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Yes! You can get the Volt! It ’s a great..........Ah whatthefuckguys??

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Just Jeepin' 07/14/2020 at 21:59

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Just Jeepin' > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 07/14/2020 at 22:01

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What’s that from?

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > Just Jeepin' 07/14/2020 at 22:01

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Beerfest!

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > atfsgeoff 07/14/2020 at 22:01

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No, they pour silica down the intake, run the engine for awhile.  THEN crush them.

For Sweden > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 22:01

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The  sequel is always worse.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Just Jeepin' 07/14/2020 at 22:02

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Welcome to the new world order— half-baked ideas that sound good in a 10 second sound bite but make no sense in the real world.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 22:03

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Cfc excluded any pre 1984 models and only reinbursed at most for $ 4.5k. Living in the rustbelt, and fom what my cousin at a dealership told me, only david tracy would be upset at the garbage that was rolled in.

If I was president first thing I’d do is push for some sort of minimum federal inspection. 

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 07/14/2020 at 22:03

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Oh, yeah, that 20 million gram overhead of CO2 in every EV battery is going to be GREAT for the environment.

Get ready for a slew of “great ideas” like this...

QCGoose > For Sweden 07/14/2020 at 22:05

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And the original suuuuuucked.

Maxima Speed > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 22:11

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Screw that guy. Cash for clunkers was a sad travesty.

jminer > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/14/2020 at 22:23

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This - the vast majority of stuff that got traded in had three wheels in the junkyard already or was worth nothing on the second hand market.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 22:24

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Oh this will work out well for all of us that can’t afford a 500 dollar a month car payment. 

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > facw 07/14/2020 at 22:26

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And the economy, since most Americans  can’t afford a new car,

DipodomysDeserti > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/14/2020 at 22:34

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Doesn’t seem so “new”.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > jminer 07/14/2020 at 22:38

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People have rose colored glasses. Out of 690k they found a few hundred models. Oh an 80s maserati, 3000GT, a 1 997supra. you think people took good salvageable cars to scrap for at most 4.5k? They took whatever shit they had the title to and accelerated the trip to the scrap heap. Only change is they should have made it possible to dismantle the car. 

https://jalopnik.com/the-full-list-of-every-cash-for-clunkers-trade-in-5369762

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > sony1492 07/14/2020 at 22:45

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most demand drops 25% from 9pm -7 am

19JRC99 > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 22:56

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It was a failure the first fucking time and it’ll be a failure the second time .

404 - User No Longer Available > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/14/2020 at 23:01

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Only change is they should have made it possible to dismantle the car.

I thought that was why they did the liquid glass thing? Destroy the engine and recycle the car for parts?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > 404 - User No Longer Available 07/14/2020 at 23:04

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you are correct. they could strip it minus the block. 

https://jalopnik.com/cash-for-clunkers-worthless-for-most-auto-recyclers-5324812

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > jminer 07/14/2020 at 23:12

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Th ey joked it was a good thing the dealership was on the bottom of a hill, to give the crap all the help they needed to roll in .

BigBlock440 > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 07/14/2020 at 23:19

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Not with that attitude.  Here, let me introduce you to our finance guy.

BigBlock440 > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/14/2020 at 23:20

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coincidentally, the sun also stops shining during that time as well

BigBlock440 > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/14/2020 at 23:24

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My brother in law traded in a good, running 305 Camaro for a Camry.  He regretted it every day for a while.  It wasn’t a good time for new vehicles.

Jim Spanfeller > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 23:53

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...

GO TRUMP/KANYE WOOO!!!

*cries

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > BigBlock440 07/14/2020 at 23:56

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you mean the @ 2 % of the US electrical grid?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_States

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/14/2020 at 23:58

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David Tracy’s yard cries in anguish.

nermal > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/15/2020 at 00:12

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Typical of the D establishment. It’s just Biden pandering to the autoworkers in swing states OH / MI / TX . The overall net effect will be just like things like adding a few cents in tax on to gas or cigarettes or sugary drinks. They’re all things that disproportionately hurt the lowest income people.

The side effect of the original cash-for-clunkers is that it accelerated new car purchases for a short while , but also took a lot of cheap used cars off the market. Plus, with the reduced inventory, used car values went up, making it more difficult for lower income individuals to buy a cheap used car.

In reality, it would be better for the economy as a whole and return on taxpayer investment to just give everybody more TrumpBucks (or BidenBucks).

Link to relevant study, that concluded the program cost $3B, and actually reduced new vehicle spending by $5B:

https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/app.20150172

Long_Voyager94 > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/15/2020 at 07:12

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Also living in the rust belt and seeing what was sitting on the CFC lots, I’m calling BS on what your cousin told you.

1. Many dealers weren’t sticking to the year rules or EPA mileage rules, so there were quite a few “classics” awaiting scrap.

2. 99% of what I saw sitting there would have been great cars for some people. Sure there were a few complete scrap heaps, but in general it was just nice looking normal vehicles.

As far as inspections, a lot can happen between inspections and plenty of “inspection” states have just as much junk rolling on the streets as those who don’t.

BigBlock440 > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/15/2020 at 07:43

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We don’t want to increase that?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Long_Voyager94 07/15/2020 at 08:34

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Ever think the reason you saw those sitting around on the lot were awaiting dismantling to save other vehicles vs swiss cheese   New Yorker that instantly got crushed?

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > BigBlock440 07/15/2020 at 08:38

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It would be good to increase that, but as of now, there is a large amount of grid capacity that is unused at nighttime.

The original comment was “ do we have the infrustructure” ( for electric cars) ? Demand drops significantly at nighttime, the time most would be charging much more than the 2% that solar adds to the daytime grid .

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 07/15/2020 at 08:53

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except the program didn’t have a net change in the number of vehicles on the road. the recession meant 15-20mil fewer new vehicles sold had an impact. yes the demand for used cars increased, because the supply of new cars was substantially reduced .

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish 07/15/2020 at 08:56

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“ For a bigger electric vehicle with a larger battery, that gap could grow to 68% or more, the nonprofit organization found.”

https://www.businessinsider.com/building-electric-cars-how-much-pollution-versus-gas-powered-vehicles-2019-11

“ In a 2015 study, the Union of Concerned Scientists found that gas-powered cars emitted almost double the emissions that contribute to global warming as electric vehicles, which can make up the difference from the manufacturing stage in six to 18 months of driving, depending on the size of the battery.”

and yet even if 100% of power is from coal its still less in the lifespan of the car. 

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > boredalways 07/15/2020 at 09:27

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“Mustang”, I guess?

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/15/2020 at 09:37

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How do you prevent those inspections from becoming anything more than a joke, like happened in many states, which led to them dropping inspections completely?

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/special-reports/auto-inspections/article9070418.html

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > atfsgeoff 07/15/2020 at 09:38

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Definitely agree, but I’m sure that would be a part of the plan.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/15/2020 at 09:59

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I would start working lights, tread depth cracked rusted brake lines. Yes a joke, but I see it more than I would like. 

Long_Voyager94 > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/15/2020 at 10:00

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Considering these were vehicles sitting awaiting their “judgement”/ “payout” before being scrapped/crushed, no.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/15/2020 at 10:19

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I liv e in Oklahoma - you can only imagine the deaths traps you see driving around on a regular basis.

CobraJoe > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/15/2020 at 10:49

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People have rose colored glasses. Out of 690k they found a few hundred models. Oh an 80s maserati, 3000GT, a 1997supra. you think people took good salvageable cars to scrap for at most 4.5k? They took whatever shit they had the title to and accelerated the trip to the scrap heap. Only change is they should have made it possible to dismantle the car.

Forget the few classic cars, there was a ton of usable cars, or cars requiring minimal repairs. Remember, they had to be registered in the owner’s name for a year before trading in.

Sure, it was “only 690k” vehicles in the used market of millions, but how big is the sub $4500 used market? What happens to the supply of cheap used cars when over a half a million of usable cheap vehicles are removed from the market ? What happens to the cheap used car prices when the supply is noticably reduced?

Point is, the forced disabling of the traded in cars was a burden on the poorer people who were never able to afford buying new.

C onsidering the demand in the used car market now, combined with the production difficulties caused by the CoronaVirus, it would be even more disastrous to destroy the functionality of the traded in vehicles.

There is a better way, just make sellers perform the necessary repairs on traded in vehicles before reselling them.  Leave it up to capitalism to decide if a car is monetarily worth saving or not, and flood the market with newer, cleaner, and more efficient used cars instead of the true junkers that would never have been traded in.  

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > CobraJoe 07/15/2020 at 11:12

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Insignificant to the millions of cars not sold in the following 6 years. Estimated 15-20 million cars weren’t sold. So the 670k was 3.5-4.5% of the used market that would have been. The complete lack of new supply had a much bigger impact than the shrinkage of the used market that was destroyed under cfc. 

CobraJoe > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/15/2020 at 12:17

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Insignificant to the millions of cars not sold in the following 6 years.

And what percentage of those cars sold from 2009-2015 are now worth less than the previous 4500 limit?

I agree that the lack of new car sales is a big factor in used car prices, but destroying a significant number of cars worth less than $4500 is still going to have a noticeable effect. And it is a noticeable effect that can easily be avoided.

Derpwagon > sony1492 07/15/2020 at 13:59

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“fuck poor people” is the general theme of all politicians. 

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 07/15/2020 at 14:01

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Of course, UCS also thinks “Wyoming” and “Seattle” have the same “equivalent” MPGe, despite Seattle being 100% hydro and Rock Springs being 100% coal.  UCS is just hilariously fucked up in their grid assumptions.

UCS has long been revealed to be one of the worst “greenwashers” here. Bureau of Economic Research annually savages them for their shitty, corner-cutting work.

TheCCITT.org and Climate Central have done much more rigorous work— and the truth is a lot more complex than UCS dumbs it down for the Cult.

There’s a fuckuva lotta CO2 in battery production. It’s truly nonsense to put such wastefully large cells in a passenger car.

boredalways > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/15/2020 at 15:44

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Not for me.  Plus they should have called it anything but Mustang.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > boredalways 07/15/2020 at 16:02

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I agree.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 07/16/2020 at 12:42

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Good point.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 12:44

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Good thread. I’ll try to come back later and give it a good read. I turned in my ‘89 Camry this way. Great car, leaking from every pore, but needed its second heater core and I wasn’t ready to tackle that again. So I took the grand and dropped it off.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 13:28

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Lot a bad way to kick it to the curb, I suppose.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 14:15

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It really needed an engine-out tune-up. If I were younger or I had a grandchild who needed a car, we might well have tackled it together.